The Radiant Mission
The Radiant Mission
126. Overcoming Abortion Trauma and Addiction: Sarah Keel’s Journey
After years of struggling with incarceration and substance abuse, Sarah Keel experienced a profound transformation that led her to become the Executive Director at Renew Clinic. On this episode of The Radiant Mission Podcast, Sarah shares her deeply personal journey from darkness to light, inspired by an encounter with the gospel during her time in jail in 2007. Her story is not just one of redemption but also a testament to the power of faith, community, and prayer in overcoming addiction and supporting loved ones who face similar battles.
In our conversation, we address the deeply emotional and psychological ramifications of abortion, highlighting the often ignored links between abortion, mental health struggles, and substance abuse. Through personal experiences, we unpack the emotional scars that can follow and challenge societal desensitization to abortion's impact. By sharing these insights, we aim to open up a wider dialogue about the true effects of abortion and emphasize faith's role in spiritual healing and confronting past traumas.
We also navigate the complex realm of spiritual warfare, exploring how certain life choices can leave us vulnerable to spiritual attacks. Sarah and I discuss the importance of recognizing these challenges and the strength that faith offers in overcoming them. Our episode concludes with a powerful message of grace and redemption, reassuring listeners that no one is beyond the reach of God's love and healing power. Join us as we uncover the spiritual battles that many face and the victory that faith promises.
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Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast. My name is Rebecca Toomey and we are on a mission to encourage and inspire you as you're navigating through your life and with your relationship with Christ. We've been in a series on being countercultural in a secular world and today I welcome a very special guest. Her name is Sarah Keel and she is a wife, mom, lover of Jesus and is the executive director at Renew Clinic.
Speaker 1:Sarah has a long history of incarceration, substance abuse and mental health issues and she did not grow up in a Christian household, but she was introduced to the gospel message while in jail in 2007. Ever since, sarah has been growing in her relationship with Christ. She earned her bachelor's degree in applied behavioral science, is a certified recovery coach and a certified transformational leadership trainer. Sarah is currently working on her master's in global apologetics from Colorado Christian University and she's been working in the mental health industry since 2013 as a high-risk educator, resident advisor for at-risk youth in New Mexico, fswii for Tennessee Department of Children's Services, regional Faith-Based Community Coordinator at MDC State of Tennessee, and now the Executive Director for Renew Clinic. I had the pleasure of meeting Sarah after I heard her testimony at our church, actually on Easter Sunday last year, and I am just, sarah, so grateful that you are here today. Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thank you for inviting me. That was so kind. I remember you coming up to me and I think it was on that Easter Sunday and you said I have a podcast, I want to have you on.
Speaker 1:I was.
Speaker 1:So I actually usually sit in the back to the left-hand side. I just always we tend to sit in the same place, and that day we sat right in the middle, like two rows back. It was like you were talking right to me sharing your testimony and it just honestly resonated so much, especially as someone who has multiple family members that have struggled with addiction, and at that moment, when you shared your testimony, I was thinking of those people. I may have been sitting with one of them and I just was thinking people need to hear this that aren't here today about what you've been through and how God has gotten you through it, but also how someone like me who has family members and loved ones and friends that are going through addiction, can help, what we can do to support the people around us, how we can pray for them, what we could pray for them, whatever the case might be. So I just knew I was literally sitting there like I have to talk to her. I actually think I was a little bit crazy when I ran up to you.
Speaker 2:I'm like so nice to meet you. Come on the podcast. Yeah, I just thought, wow, you look like a movie star. She must have a really popular podcast. She looks like a movie star, you're so sweet. No but I love your heart for story and just sitting here talking to you the last half hour, you know you're such a sweet, sweet person and I can just see Christ all over you and I love what you're doing here. So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for being here. So I have mentioned I got to hear that short version of your testimony because I'm sure they would they give you 20 minutes. Whatever it was, it was impactful, maybe not even.
Speaker 2:No, not even it might've been 10. It might've maybe 10. I don't even know. It could have been five, I can't remember, but it wasn't very long.
Speaker 1:I knew a lot was missing, but the things that I did hear and a lot of it was very heartbreaking. You know, something that you discuss is abortion, and a lot of it was really inspiring, and so I just knew that your story is one that others need to hear. So take your time. Do not do this in five or 10 minutes. Take your time and walk us through your journey. You know where do you want to start.
Speaker 2:I usually don't like it when people start where I'm about to start, but I do feel like I should start as just being a child. So you had mentioned and I said this on stage and I'm going to say it again I didn't grow up in a Christian home, but I always. But I didn't grow up in an environment that was hostile to Christ, Like we would occasionally go to church on Easter or Christmas, you know things like that, and I would say that we were guided by Christian principles. But I never knew and I heard about Jesus, but it's not like I understood doctrine or could articulate the gospel or, you know, knew that Jesus is God in the flesh. You know I never had any Bible studies or anything like that my father, who adopted me when I was nine because I never met my biological father he's also um, from what I know about him is struggles with addiction as well Um, so I was adopted when I was I want to say I was eight I think I just said I was nine, but I was eight but he is a faithful Jew and he is not a Christian, but he has always been very infatuated with like Eastern religions and things like that and has always been very infatuated with like Eastern religions and things like that.
Speaker 2:And you know he had a very strict upbringing so he was pretty strict and I think that there were some benefits to that. You know in my life that he taught me, but I say all that to say I was not raised a Christian. You know it was more of a universalist perspective about God that. You know you hear the different stories or the different metaphors of. You know we're all looking at the elephant from different angles and some people describe this side of the elephant this way. I think my dad has even said this to me several times. We went to a universalist Unitarian church a few times. He was heavily involved in the recovery community.
Speaker 1:Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I remember when I was little, going to meetings and listening to adults. Was he recovering? Was he Okay? Yes, yes, yes. Now I never knew him when he was in active use, when he was actively using, but yes, he's in recovery. So I spent a lot of my childhood around adults. I was an only child so you know I was always around adults talking about recovery, in the rooms of AA and NA, going to Al-Anon meetings, sitting around having coffee and cookies with everyone, going to coffee shops after meetings.
Speaker 2:So I just going to like classical guitar concerts, you know just, I kind of what, what you would say is kind of like what's like popular now with I don't know, some of the, some of the youth, some of the trends that I see. It's like that's how I grew up, like that's how my home was. You know just, you know just a little new, agey and grungy. I mean my dad, he, he did well for himself. I'm just saying like that grunge style. I guess you could say uh, in in. You know, I remember playing with ouija boards when I was in the coffee shop like young, and nobody stopped me. So I don't know, I just it's kind of a free-for-all. You know, um, but there were still, like I would say, christian values that were still there in the home, but as far as, like, the understanding of who God is, doctrines of grace, that was definitely not a belief in my home. So, again, I say all that to say I did not grow up believing or being taught from a Christian perspective. And I say all that to say I did not grow up believing or being taught from a Christian perspective.
Speaker 2:However, when I was little, I always, like, was very infatuated with God. I always thought about Him a lot. I remember, you know, just being in the back of the car and looking up out the back of the window at night, when I could see the stars and just like really dreaming about Him and thinking about Him. And I could perceive see the stars and just like really dreaming about him and thinking about him and I could perceive in the stars. It reminds me in the in the psalms, whenever it says you know the heavens declare the. You know his majesty.
Speaker 2:I could absolutely perceive that God was real, he's powerful and he's loving. Um, I knew that about him at a young age, but that's about all I knew. But, you know, I think I had a pretty good childhood. The only thing I would say really hurt me was, you know, my mom was married several times and so I mean it was a traumatic, I think, looking back on it, it is a traumatic experience to feel like you're constantly losing your mom to a man that may or may not care about you. You know now my adopted father. He did adopt me and he still takes that very seriously to this day. He's still not a believer, but he still takes that role in my life very seriously, which I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 1:Did your mom and your stepdad or your adopted dad? Did they end up splitting up? They did, and she remarried after that. She did yes, so you had kind of the now. Did you ever know your biological father at all? No, so you had that missing link know yeah, missing.
Speaker 2:well, she had married when I was three and I loved him very much and so when they divorced, I know I mourned and grieved. And then when she got married to my adopted father, I was very angry because it went from like I was very angry because it went from like this, but I mean no disrespect to my parents at all, to my adopted father, so I'm very grateful for him, but I think he would not deny the fact that he was very strict, very, very strict. It's like a Jew from the Bronx OK, he's very, very strict. I got a D on my report card like Like I lost every privilege, down to eating sweets, you know, if I brought a D home period, I mean it was, even if it was a test I was grounded for from everything you know. So it went from like like a, almost like a free, a free feeling, loving atmosphere to almost like this uh, cold, rigid atmosphere and that was devastating to me and I think it affected me a lot more than I ever gave it credit.
Speaker 1:um, absolutely because you don't. You don't have any way to articulate those feelings. As a child, Right, right. We don't have that capability until we're grown to really even understand that Right.
Speaker 2:Right and I think you know you look back on how your parents parented and they did the best they could with what they knew. You know I mean he, he didn't have a loving home either, so he parented the way, the only way he knew to parent at the time. And my mom's the same way. I mean she, she's a very loving, nurturing, doting mother. I mean she was, she was a very good mom. But still, the decisions of adults can still hurt children and I think it just provoked a lot of anger inside of me.
Speaker 2:I started to rebel very, very young, at 12. I started to rebel very, very young, sneaking out, stealing the car, messing around with boys and using drugs by the time I was 13 and 14 years old, you know taking pills, cocaine, ecstasy, things like that and you know it wasn't really cool. You know the friends that I was growing up with and had the friends that I had. You know they didn't really stick around and so that was the. So I found other friends and started hanging out with actually much older people, which you know I look back on. Like some of the people that I hung out with, I'm like, oh my gosh, you were like 40 hanging out with, like high schoolers, like what were you doing? But I started using very early and started becoming sexually active by the time I was 14. 14. And, um, my mom and my adopted father they actually, I would say that they ended up divorcing because they couldn't agree on how to handle my rebellion. Wow, um, I was sent to different group homes. Um, I went, I was sent to a children's home that I actually ran away from because they just I was out of control, they didn't know what to do with me, and so that was almost like an attempt to save me. It wasn't. I don't look back at that and think, oh my gosh, they hated me. I don't blame them. I mean, they didn't know what to do, and so they did the best that they could.
Speaker 2:I saw every counselor, every psychiatrist. I was on medication. I was on juvenile probation. I was in first time. I went to juvenile detention I think I was 15 years old for about 17 days, but I stayed on probation.
Speaker 2:My entire adolescence, I would say I mean my entire teenage years, was spent with a curfew, with a probation officer, with someone to answer to, and so it actually took me a while to to not feel like I have to look over my shoulder or explain my life to somebody, because I was so used to that that was actually something I had to get used to. So, yeah, I mean just, I experienced a lot of adult things at a very young age and when I became sexually active at 14, I ended up getting pregnant when I was 15. And I was encouraged by the adults in my life to get an abortion and, to be honest with you at the time I treated it very transactionally. I treated it very transactionally. I didn't think too deeply about it. I was more concerned about my boyfriend at the time.
Speaker 2:What people thought about me getting back out there and partying, feeling good, just very self-centered, and so, you know, getting going in and getting that abortion. I remember leaving and just thinking, treating it as if it was just a medical procedure, but there was still something that felt dirty about it. It still felt very dirty, but I would say I spiraled after that because it was just like a level of dirty that I felt that it's like, okay, I've kind of crossed this line, this level of dirty you know, wow, did your parents know about this?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. So they were aware of everything that was going on. Mm-hmm, so they were aware of everything that was going on. That had to be a very hard thing, that you'd been rebelling for a couple of years and then it was like you're 15 and pregnant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know my, my parents now are very conservative, I would say very pro-life. At the time they weren't though.
Speaker 2:I mean it was, I think my mom particularly you know she was not in a relationship with the Lord, she was in survival mode with me and I think she was very much in a similar place as I was is just, like you know, just making decisions out of utter survival mode, you know, and so I, you know she did encourage me to get that, so, but I mean, she has completely changed her mind about abortion now. Um, yeah, and it's very remorseful that she encouraged me in that direction.
Speaker 1:What was that like for you to have an abortion and to go through that experience. You know, did anybody go with you?
Speaker 2:My mom went with me. My boyfriend at the time did not, and I remember calling him afterwards and it was just like nothing even happened. You know, I felt like I feel like everybody just kind of, even his mom included, just and she actually blamed me for being pregnant, like she, she, she's like it's only one person is involved in that process one to tango, you know. But she, I remember her blaming me and I'm I'm not mad at her or anything like that, but that's just what I remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um you know, I think everybody was just emotionally spent from all the drama of our relationship, from us using drugs and being crazy and wild. I think everybody's just tired of us and sick of the relationship and just did not want anything keeping us together. And so I think you know his mom, she's probably just really tired of me. So I don't blame her there. But, to be honest with you, I was numb, I was so numb, I was numb, I was so numb.
Speaker 2:But there is a deep, dark, dark, horrific wound that happens to a person, and I think that in our society we have become so desensitized to the realities of what abortion actually is that our soul and our spirit know, but our mind is not connected to it. And so there's actually just this disconnect where there's this, this deep guilt that people I think a lot of people are walking around with who have had an abortion, but their mind doesn't know what that guilt is coming from, because they do not deem abortion as evil. Because they're, because they're blind around with all kinds of issues because of the scarring that abortion has left on their soul, but their mind won't even acknowledge that it was evil. Wow, and I think that that's kind of that's where I was at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cause you mentioned that you spiraled after this, you and I had chatted a little bit about this and that it seems to be a recurring theme with many women who have had abortions. You know this is part of your story too, and other women that I know have communicated with you that or that. You know I've been in those circles that it can lead to substance abuse because of the deep pain and guilt that comes from.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean I know women who think that they've committed the unpardonable sin from having an abortion. I know several women personally that either had a complete mental breakdown and became suicidal after having an abortion or that's where their addiction started was after having an abortion. And I mean I know very specific people that this has happened to and I don't think that the correlation between the two is addressed enough. I don't think there's been enough conversation. You know the secular world, the liberal world, the pro-choice movement wants to treat abortion as a good thing and to help the mental health of women, and I think that that is such a naive, intellectually dishonest position because there's no way that death brings healing to a woman. And I would like to find a study or for someone to do a study on the correlation between the two, but I don't know of any numbers off the top of my head, but I do know personally several women where that was the pivotal moment for them in their either mental breakdown or their very beginning point of their addiction journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I'm very grateful for actually social media tools like Instagram, that we have liveactionorg on Instagram now and Lila Rose and you know a bunch of different women that have been speaking up about this, that have been speaking up about this, because I think that you're right that there is this. There's this battle to convince teenagers that abortion is a medical procedure and that it's health care, women's health care. But when you actually watch a video about what happens during an abortion or learn about the fact that life begins at conception, it changes the game. And I'll be honest with you, I was one of those people for a long time that said, well, I'm pro-life and I would never get an abortion. But whatever people are going to do, they're going to do life and I would never get an abortion, but whatever people are going to do, they're going to do.
Speaker 1:And over time it was just because I was naive, I didn't know what was actually happening during an abortion and we didn't have the internet when I was a kid sort of did, but I was at the beginning stages of the AOL dial-up and all that stuff. I remember it wasn't readily available like it is today, and I think that that's one of the positives of social media and the internet is exposing what's really going on behind closed doors, that it's not just take a pill and flush your uterus out. It's nothing but a clump of cells. So something that also totally changed my perspective and I actually did share this on the podcast quite a while ago is I had a miscarriage and I was only my guess is about six or seven weeks pregnant and I actually passed the baby and it was the size of a grain of rice but had already developed a nose and ears and it had a cord an umbilical cord and a tiny placenta at six weeks and obviously having a miscarriage is not a fun thing, right?
Speaker 1:You get all excited when you find out out. You see those two lines and then they start getting lighter and that's not fun. But when I found this baby in my pad it was such a life changing moment to say and like to reconfirm life and that it is building itself. You know, through that process. So I'm, I'm grateful for you, know you sharing your experience with this to expose that it's not all cupcakes and roses and you know you're, you're sweeping away all your troubles. It can lead to real psychological damage and pain?
Speaker 2:Oh, totally. And can I tell you something else? That's kind of weird and twisted about the whole thing, so, and I'm skipping a lot right now but I'll get to some of it.
Speaker 1:But just on the abortion piece for many, many years.
Speaker 2:I probably could have gone to a psychiatrist somewhere and been diagnosed with like obsessive thoughts, ocd type things, right. I mean I really struggled with and I think it was drug induced um from like bad trips on mushrooms and things like that. I mean some of these thoughts never even began to enter my mind until I took some of the drugs that I took and then I dealt with ongoing mental torture for a long time. God has delivered me, praise God. But for the longest time, even as a Christian, I struggled with this thought, with this feeling that I had killed someone and didn't remember doing it, and it tormented me. When I say it tormented me, it would keep me up. But I related it to and this is as a Christian, because I became pro-life all the conservative positions.
Speaker 2:Once I became a Christian I took all conservative positions right. So intellectually I agree, positions right. So intellectually I agree Abortion is evil at this point, but still not relating to mine as what had actually happened. And I spent years with this harassing thought I've killed someone, I don't remember doing it and what I thought it was is. I've spent so much time in a blackout.
Speaker 2:I could have done something horrible and I don't even remember doing it and that's what I thought, that's why, and so I kind of I surrendered all the years that I don't remember, you know. But I mean I even went to like looking up news stories Like has anybody ever like in places that I used to live, has anybody ever been like hit by a drunk driver and nobody ever found out who it was, or something? I mean I was like obsessively and because I kind of, if I were going to be like I said, if I were going to be diagnosed with something clinical, I can understand like the OCD mind, the, the obsessive thoughts, the ruminating the, you know, and I think that that's just demonic harassment. Now I mean I really do, Now that I know, I've understood kind of where some of that comes from.
Speaker 2:But I never pinned down that I had not grieved and mourned my abortion. I was brushing it off to something else. I mean that's how transactional, that's how disconnected I was from the abortion as a Christian, pro-life Christian, several years into being a Christian, and God, in His perfect timing, removed that veil from me. What.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask is how did the veil drop for that? How was that revealed?
Speaker 2:It was in time because he's very gentle. But grief is a strange thing. I mean now I can't hardly get through talking about it without tears coming. But I've made the promise I will never forget him again and I believe God's revealed to me. I was a boy, I was very, very young in my pregnancy, so there's no way I could have known anything. I mean, I was, you know, six weeks or something. But I forgot him once. I will never forget him again is my vow in his life.
Speaker 2:It means something, it has value and it has purpose and it has totally motivated me to see the horrors of abortion. There is no exception. There's no exception. I mean I hated abortion before. I hate it even more now.
Speaker 2:You know, I was pro-life when I became a Christian and I thought I mean I just had so much zeal because, logically, I'm like, I'm just like thinking like logically, like y'all, it's murder, you know, and still not connected to my own, totally disconnected. But when God removed that veil was an adult, I had been a christian for a while and um, the actually the floodgates more so open, I would say just within a year ago. Wow, yeah, and I've even become more pro-life as I've become an adult and things like that, but to actually grieve and mourn the blood that was on my own hands and to actually recognize what the sin I had committed, of my own child and my child's blood being on my hand. It's not a condemnation thought. It's not a condemnation thought, it's not a tormenting thought, it is not from the enemy, it is truly from the Lord for me to actually grieve this thing inside of me that has been there ever since.
Speaker 1:That has caused a lot of mental anguish and confusion and distortion and I didn't even connect it to that yeah, um, I know it reminds me of how you know I've this is something I talk about sometimes that our minds are like computers and we store all these files and we have our kind of conscious thoughts and we have our subconscious thoughts, and I think that sometimes, when something is so painful, it's like we put it in the back. You know, we put it in a folder inside of a folder, inside of another folder, and it's there, but we don't. That's our subconscious right.
Speaker 2:It's like it's in the back and it sounds like you have had multiple yeah it sounds like it was there.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay, it was there, but your, your mind, didn't want to open the file you know, it didn't, it didn't want to open the folder that it was in painful.
Speaker 1:It was too painful. But then there was another piece of you that was saying maybe it was the enemy, like you said. You know you've killed someone. You've killed someone and he's probably the one that talked you into it in the first place. That's the thing that's so sick about the enemy is the things that he talks us into doing and then uses it to torture us later.
Speaker 2:I know, I know, I know he hates us. He hates humans because we're in, we're creating the image of god. That's why he hates us. Whenever he looks at a human being, he's reminded of his worst enemy. But yes, I mean the enemy is all up in, like causing us to stumble and fall and sin and then wants to torment us with it. You're absolutely right and I absolutely believe that the tormenting thoughts like what if you've killed someone and you don't remember it? I mean I had no evidence that I had. I mean I was thinking horrific Like what if I? You know, I mean it's insane like the thoughts that I would actually entertain and not, I mean, what most people would reasonably just say oh, that's stupid.
Speaker 2:I struggled, you know, putting thoughts away. I really did for a very long time. I don't care how ridiculous it was. If it crossed my mind, I would sit there and entertain it and I thought that was just another one of those things. But that one thing never went away and call it demonic the subconscious mind. I do think Satan was having a heyday. But also the subconscious mind is trying to bring to the forefront like there's something here that needs to be dealt with. But God in his perfect time. He helped me mature and helped me grow in my faith and helped me understand grace, and I think that's when he really pulled back the veil.
Speaker 2:I was driving, I was on my way to Nashville to meet with the president of a college and the CEO of another organization because they want to partner with Renew Clinic on something. And I'm driving to Nashville and I just felt this grief inside. I'm like Lord, what is that grief? And that's when it happened. And I'm driving. When I say I'm sobbing. I mean I was grieving the loss of a child. I was actually grieving in that moment, the loss of a child, and I've needed to grieve that ever since it happened and I never grieved it. And I saw blood on my hands and the Lord said hand this to me, give this to me. I've atoned for this kind of thing and in my mentally, spiritually, I handed the blood over to him and then he reminded me death doesn't no longer has the final say. Death isn't the end anymore. There's hope, like that's not the final say of your story anymore or of your child's story anymore. That's not the final say of your story anymore or of your child's story anymore. That's not the final say, because Christ lives and but they were still grieving.
Speaker 2:I pull up to the meeting. I call my husband and I told him I can't stop crying, I'm sobbing, I cannot stop crying, I'm grieving the abortion I had when I was 15 years old and he prayed for me. I was able to like pull myself together kind of like, put some makeup on and walk in there. I went to the bathroom. I'm like Lord, please help me pull this together. The president, I go and sit down. We're at a Mexican restaurant. And I go and sit down. We're at a Mexican restaurant, christian Brothers in Christ, right, and we've all introduced each other friendly. And I feel like I'm such a fake and phony at that point because I was just weeping in the parking lot. Now I'm like hi, I'm Sarah, you know, like such a fake and phony.
Speaker 2:And then the president of Williamson College that's the college, bless him. He turned to me and he said so, how many children do you have? And I started weeping. I said okay, I got to tell y'all something. And I told them. I sat there and I said the Lord has, I've on my way here. I've started grieving something I've never grieved before and it was abortion that I had when I was 15 years old and I'm really grieving. I feel like I have to vocalize this to you all for me to even move forward in this discussion. They loved on me. There was no condemnation at all. You know, whenever people say, oh, the church is so judgmental and all this stuff, I've zero judgment at that table. But I just felt nothing but love and acceptance and um, so yeah, that's when the Lord decided to remove the veils.
Speaker 1:It's amazing how he works, but I'm grateful that you opened up to them. It's good to hear that you were just like you know what. Here's what's really going on. I think that that allows for a lot of opportunity to to just be real with people you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But going back to the addiction side of things, I mean that goes to show you that, as a Christian, I mean God will continue to deliver us from things and heal us from things. That you know there's no like moment, that there's a moment of salvation, but there's no like okay, this is the moment that I was all better you know, yeah, everything was resolved because this was at least 20 years later.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, 20 years, more than 20 years later, I'm 37. This was like last year, so like 2021 years later. Yeah, and that's when the Lord decided to heal something from when I was 15 years old and for me to grieve. And so now my heart is very sensitive to the abortion I had, but I will take that pain. I will take that pain. I'll take the grief that. I do not ever want to be numb to that again or to forget my child again. I will never forget him again. But, yes, when I was a teen, after that abortion at 15.
Speaker 2:I definitely spun out very promiscuous. Gosh, I can't even begin to tell you just the crazy things that I did. And you know, I almost found my identity at some point. And just doing the most drugs, doing the craziest things, and I just wanted an identity. And I thought, ok, this is something I'm really good at. I'm really good at, like being a criminal and getting in fights and using a wanted an identity. And I thought, okay, this is something I'm really good at. I'm really good at, like, being a criminal and getting in fights and using a bunch of drugs. So I guess I'm just gonna go all in, you know. And so that's what I did, and I ended up I was incarcerated quite a bit. I can't even tell you how many times I've been arrested.
Speaker 1:What were you getting arrested for, just like underage drinking or Stupid stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean stupid stuff, like primarily DUI, like DUI, underage drinking, shoplifting, driving with a revoked license you know just stupid stuff. But after you get like eight driving with a revoked license, you know just stupid stuff. But after you get like eight driving with a revoked license, they lock you up for a while. It's like okay, no way. Yeah, I mean it's stupid, but and I was a dumb criminal I remember being at a party. I was so dumb and this was God's grace in my, my life. I was at a party and they were all. It was like a kegger or something like that. I mean, who who hasn't done that as a teenager? Maybe some people. But but I was at a party and everyone had been drinking. The cops came. They're passing out underage drinking tickets. Everyone's gotten one. He. He said did I miss anyone? And I raised my hand. That's the kind of dumb criminal I am.
Speaker 1:You're like give it to me man.
Speaker 2:I was like I didn't get one, Slap me with another one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't get one. Don't leave me out. That's funny. Were you the only one who did that?
Speaker 2:Yes, and then I was like, oh, you know, just like me, I was just like, wait, what I just do? Um, just dumb, um. So it was just stuff like that, but I mean, but it ended it. I was constantly on probation, constantly had a curfew, um, I I did like a 30 somesome stint in jail, a 60-day, some stint in jail, you know, 17-day, three-day. You know, it was just a bunch of like smaller stints, a lot of treatment in and out of treatment, you know, a lot of secular treatment. And it was when I was in jail that there was a prison ministry and they brought the gospel.
Speaker 2:And this time that I was in jail, this specific time, god just got me to a very low, low place. I had burned every bridge. I had no dignity, no self-respect, no true friends anymore, really no place to go because I couldn't live with my mom and I had no home. At that point, I mean, I really had no place to go and I had no one trusted me, no self-respect, no hope. I mean I was at such a low place. I was locked up in one County on probation, missing a court date in another County for the same charge, and so I'm like terrified, I'm just, you know, I'm really going to get slapped with a couple of years or something, have to go to prison, which I thought I was going to go to prison. And so my my heart was ripe to receive the gospel.
Speaker 2:And there were some these older ladies that came. They were old, I I mean they were old ladies and they came in to bring the gospel to the women in new hanover county jail in williamton, in uh uh, wilmington, north carolina, and they told us about the woman with the bleeding disorder and they brought a shawl like to represent Jesus's garment and they invited all the women in the prison to come and to touch the hem of his garment to be healed. And I just dove to that garment. Mind you, I did not grow up in a Christian home, I didn't grow up Christian, but I knew, right then and there, what they're saying is true.
Speaker 2:I believe Jesus can forgive me, I believe Jesus can deliver me, I believe Jesus can help me. And I just remembered just diving and started weeping. And then all these other women started clinging to the hem of this garment and sobbing. It was like Pentecost, I mean, it was like just the Holy Spirit just came upon these women in this room. I'm sure that those two old women. It was such a blessing to be a part of that and to facilitate that. I'm so grateful, though, and that was the beginning of my journey with Christ. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Wow, what, what a blessing that those women were there. And what a moving. Moving I don't know what the word is, but like the you know what the story and the you know hem of his garment, like it just wow, I like have the chills. That's very cool, yes, very neat. And so that was a turning point for you as you started on a new journey.
Speaker 1:And I'm curious because you and I have talked about spiritual warfare a little bit. You mentioned being demonized earlier, but you also have brought up a couple of things that I've had some conversations with other women who have had, who have been demonized before and have used Ouija boards as kids or have been exposed to other potential doorways to darkness and things of that nature over their youth and teenage years. So I'm curious about the spiritual warfare side of things in the spiritual realm. Is that something that came later? Is that something that came later in your walk with Christ that you kind of started to see the spiritual realm or understand or feel it? I know everyone has kind of a different take on the sensing of the spiritual realm in a sense, but I'd love for you to just kind of speak to that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I don't think I really dealt with my tormentors until I was later in my walk with Christ and I think, okay, so I do think that there's some doors that open specifically hallucinate, hallucinate, hallucinating on mushrooms, I mean. I remember there was one night and I've done them several times, but there was one night I felt like I was stuck in a nightmare for and I didn't feel normal for about a month. Um, it's the first time I ever experienced like derealization, depersonalization, which is like feeling like you're in a dream, you know, questioning like is everything around me real? And it's really demonic, suggestion type stuff that if you don't, if you do not know the Lord or if you don't have a biblical worldview, you don't even know how to respond to these demonic suggestions. And so these suggestions, I think, came to me for the first time when I took mushrooms. Um, what if everything around you is fake? What if you're dreaming? What if this is just a video game? What if you know all these horrific thoughts which, clinically, they call it derealization, dep, depersonalization, which can be drug-induced, it can be trauma-induced, but I and I think that there is something to that and I also think that we make ourselves vulnerable to spiritual attack and to demonic suggestions. That's what I call it. I call it a demonic suggestion because all the all the devil really has to do sometimes is just suggest something to torment us. You know, suggest, like to pose a question that is either circular or is impossible to answer, or, you know, I can get into that in a second, but that's the first.
Speaker 2:I think that that's when a door really opened for me was tripping on mushrooms, smoking weed, stuff like that. I just did not handle that stuff well, I never really enjoyed it, and there's a reason for that. I mean, it just opened my mind up to questions, existential questions, that I just didn't have the answers to, was a Christian. Anytime I got overwhelmed because I was either a baby Christian or still didn't have the apologetic wit to me to be able to answer some of the you know, cunning and baffling, demonic suggestions that would come my way. Anytime I got stressed out or overwhelmed, those thoughts would come back, and so that went on throughout my my adult life. Really, I would just, you know, just having phobias and you know, clinically you can, you can call, call it, you know certain things, but I know that these were just tormentors that I never really confronted face to face or, you know, spiritually, until I was more of a mature believer and I was never really taught about spiritual warfare. I didn't really understand it. It was very confusing but it actually helped me a lot when I understood what actually was happening.
Speaker 2:Because you know to know that not every thought that goes through your head is from you. You know, like praise God, you know Awesome. So I'm not blaspheming. You know it's like no, that's a blasphemous thought, that's being that you're being tormented with. You know, but I was, I was man, I struggled big time with things like that and you know. But also having an abortion, that was an open door to demonic torment, I mean, and again, I didn't even know that's where it was coming from. It's like we have all these wounds to our souls and all these open doors and you know, so many adults and even Christians are, you know, walking around thinking they have some kind of disorder, when it's like Christ can heal those things. And I'm not saying every single issue that people have. I know that there are actually some physical ailments that people can have that can, that can cause, you know, severe anxiety and depression. I mean, if your thyroid's out of whack. It can. People can get suicidal. I mean truly your, your body.
Speaker 1:Or if you take birth control.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean medication, absolutely yeah, and so it's not always demonic. I don't want people to hear that and think that's what I'm saying, but for me personally, I do think it's a combination of how my brain works and having open doors and being demonically harassed for a while. But what was your original question?
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry. No, I just wanted you to talk more about that because I think that it's something that's not talked about enough in the church. But here's the thing I grew up in the church, grew up in the church, and even I did not have an understanding or talk about spiritual warfare until the past few years, and so I don't think it's the kind of thing that we're just like chit-chatting about on Sundays or in Sunday school or whatever the case might be, and that's why I want to have these conversations, so that, if someone hasn't heard about it before, now you have, and now you can become more aware that the enemy does whisper to us and he does try to influence us, and he does. It's interesting that you're using the word, you know, demonic influence. I think that's a good way of communicating about it.
Speaker 2:Or suggestion, or suggestion. That's what you said. Suggestion yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, one of the first series that I did on this podcast with my sister was on spiritual warfare and kind of talking about where the roots of spiritual warfare come from, with the Nephilim and the Watchers and all that, and we had a discussion back then about oppression versus possession. But since then my opinion has kind of shifted a little bit. It's not that I don't want to get into the semantics of it necessarily, but I've recently heard somebody use the word demonized to say that, you know, from a biblical perspective the word translates most similarly to being demonized, which I think is similar to what you're saying, where you're being influenced by demons, you're being harassed by them, they're attacking you in a sense. They're demonizing you, they're bothering you.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's yeah, and I kind of resonated with that explanation of it because that makes a lot of sense when I think about times in my life. It's like a gnat that is just coming at you, but in a really dark and evil way, and really twisted, psychologically twisted way. Absolutely In a manipulative and horrific way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. I mean, it's different for different people, right, for some people it may be suicidal stuff, which is the darkest of dark. But for other people and for a lot of men that struggle with things like pornography, it's that little whisper of nobody's going to know. Yeah, just just just do it, it's not, it's not really hurting anybody, just do it, it's not, it's not really hurting anybody. Right, you know that it's almost like the devil on one shoulder and the you know the angel on the other. Like which one are you going to listen to? And it's just an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:But my original question was just kind of when, when that was opened up for you?
Speaker 1:Because I think that in my experience and from the stories that I've heard so far, it's not like we all just wake up to this with spiritual warfare as, like little children, we're not able to understand or comprehend it, and then even as new believers, it can be very hard. It's not until many people have been spiritually attacked that sometimes they recognize it then at their lowest, or other people recognize it during an attack, like I shared the story of my son's birth with you and it's on the podcast all the details, but that was a very specific attack that I experienced in my life and there was a couple other times where I was able to, you know, kind of recognize it in the moment. But it's just something for believers and, of course, non-believers to be aware of and to be cognizant about that. We are in a spiritual realm and there are entities that want to destroy us and destroy our marriages, our children, our lives. Like you said at the beginning of this, the enemy hates humans, so he's going to do anything he can to corrupt us.
Speaker 2:He hates us, like absolutely hates us. He hates us Like absolutely hates us, and he's actually the enemy, is actually convinced. You know, people like, for example, satanist. He's convinced them that he's actually the good guy and we've all been to see, I mean, it's just, it's so twisted, you know and that he's actually the liberator of mankind. You know, it's just, it's so psychologically twisted and unless people this is the thing is unless people understand how Satan works you don't want to get so infatuated with demons and Satan that that's all you think about. However, you need to also know how your enemy operates. You've got to know his tactics. You've got to know because his tactics you've got to know, because that's how I mean. If you know how the enemy operates, then you can identify. Oh, I see what's happening here. You know, this is just, this is just a demonic attack or this is like, this is evil.
Speaker 2:You know, there are so many times that, like I had thoughts going through my head that I thought it was just me, you know, and I'd either feel ashamed of it or I would think it came from my heart, and then I'd say, oh, my gosh, lord forgive me, but the Lord kind of showed me, like when it comes to like invasive thoughts. It's kind of like I'm standing and he I don't know why this is like. The visual I got is like standing outside and there's a street and on the other side of the street there's somebody standing on a sidewalk just like screaming out explicits, right, blaspheming, god, cussing, whatever. I'm not sinning because I can hear it. You know, I didn't ask to hear it, I don't want to hear it and you know, but I'm not sinning because I can hear it. I don't want to hear it and you know, but I'm not sinning because I can hear it. And that's the same thing with like invasive thoughts sometimes is I don't think so much that it's not always just the invasive thought that's tormenting, it's people thinking that it's them that's tormenting People thinking that the thought is actually originating from them. But if we can recognize that there are invasive thoughts and you're not sinning just because you simply hear it or experience the thought, you know that in itself dismantles the whole thing. Because I think Satan's tactic is for us to feel unnecessary shame and guilt for things we haven't even done sometimes and so that was the way that I was harassed was invasive thoughts For whenever it got really bad. For me, it was invasive thoughts.
Speaker 2:I do not believe that a true, genuine believer, like a Christian, who's indwelled with the Holy Spirit, can be fully, full-on possessed by Satan. I do not believe that a true, genuine believer, like a Christian, who's indwelled with the Holy Spirit, can be fully, full on possessed by Satan. I do not believe that's true Because Jesus is the strong man who binds up the other, who binds up the robber in the house and actually, you know, clinton, jesus is. This is the strong man. I'm chopping up this scripture right now. I don't even know what I'm trying to say but it's, it's 1030.
Speaker 1:So it's my fault for for making you do this in the middle of the night.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, my words are like chopped up. But Jesus is the strong man and I don't think that any person indwelt with the Holy Spirit personally can be fully taken over by Satan. I do not believe that at all. But we can be harassed and there's different ways. We all have kind of like a kryptonite, so like Satan, has been studying humans for thousands of years and he's much smarter than we are Not smarter than God, but smarter than people.
Speaker 1:At times more strategic he's a lot older yeah, a lot older. More cunning and been watching our families for generations, Right so knows our vulnerabilities and what can hook us.
Speaker 2:But God can still give us victory, even over that ancient serpent. You know, even though we've only been on this earth 37, 38 years. You know we don't know the ins and outs of our family history, like some of the. You know some of the unseen realm knows, of the unseen realm knows. But God still gives us victory, even in our weakness and our frailty and even in our foolishness. I mean he can give us victory and he's given me victory, a tremendous victory. Some of the things I've been harassed with, I mean, by God's grace, I did not struggle today the way I used to struggle mentally with some of these things from when I opened doors, from whenever I was younger, and I do agree that that is a thing Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It takes time. It reminds me of the saying in that song tell the devil no, not today. Yeah, and that is kind of how it is right. When he comes after us and he's got his whispers and his things that he's trying to lead us off the path with. And I do agree with what you said about when the Holy Spirit is in us and dwelling with us and it's kind of there's the influence or the pressure could be there. But as long as we're allowing the Lord to reside in our hearts, with us, we have that protection. And I think that that's why a lot of times when believers or Christians are experiencing a lot of this stuff, I tend to notice it's when they're in their lukewarm state, right, they're like off the path doing their own thing, and then all this crazy stuff starts to happen and it's almost like it's not like they've lost their belief in God, but they've kicked the Holy Spirit out of their heart for that period of time.
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's interesting to kind of see the struggles of some believers over the years that I've personally known. It's like I know they believe in God, years that I've personally known. It's like I know they believe in God, but they're just being pulled away and pulled off the path. And yeah, I just think that it's important for us to all recognize the spiritual realm for what it is, expose it, expose the enemy, like you said, just have an awareness and not that it's all the time. Again, like you said, it shouldn't be our obsession.
Speaker 1:When I first started studying spiritual warfare, it actually really freaked my husband out. He was like what are you getting into? What is this about? And it really scared him. But I used to tease him. I'd be like what's the matter? Am I stirring up your demons? Am I making them mad? I'd be like what's the matter? Am I stirring up your demons? Am I making them mad? But there is a side to that that we have to own each of our own. I had to own my own things that I was allowing the enemy to influence me on and to kind of speak over me, and yeah. So anyway, I think this is, this was a good little sidebar for us to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, we have the flesh, too, that we're battling our flesh. We have Satan and we have the world, and it's all three, you know. So some it's a combination of all three and you know, I don't think that a genuine believer can, you know, make themselves not be sealed or remove the Holy Spirit from them. I don't think the Bible says that he is faithful. He will finish what he has started Now. Does he allow dark nights of the soul? Absolutely? Will he even allow, you know, a demonic harassment, because he's sovereign? I mean, he's got he does allow it, I mean, but it's not to harm us. It would be to deliver us, because, if there's any point at which Satan can, or to humble us, you know, paul talks about his, his thorn in the flesh, and it was. He called it a harassing messenger from Satan and he begged the Lord to remove it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I had actually resolved in my mind for several years that not several years, but several months, because I went through a really hard time back in 2018 with this kind of stuff. I had resolved in my mind okay, maybe this is just a thorn in my flesh to keep me humble, because that's what the Holy Spirit told Paul is you know, when you're weak, I'm strong, like my grace is sufficient for you. And the Lord did not remove that thorn, which Paul said was a harassing messenger from Satan. And that thorn was there to keep Paul humble. And you know, people want to say that the thorn could have been some kind of physical ailment, but Paul literally said it was a harassing messenger from Satan and God allowed it. Well, look at Job. Yeah, look at Job. Job was tortured for life.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I mean, and God allowed that. Mm-hmm, because I mean, and God allowed that, because I mean, yeah, it just. It was further evidence of human choice, though, which was cool in the end, that even through his torture, he wasn't cursing God or denying him. He stuck with the Lord, and I think that that's such a powerful example for us to observe and to live by is like even with being tormented, he never gave up God and God didn't give up on him.
Speaker 2:He never gave up God and God didn't give up on him. Right, if the breakdown happens, whether it's because of a physical mental breakdown or it's a demonic attack or unresolved trauma whatever label you want to put on it God is sovereign, he allows it and you know, sometimes, I know, for me there's been a treasure on the other side. I wouldn't have gotten any other way and I'm grateful for some of those times Never grateful for a demonic attack, don't get me wrong but the spiritual lessons that can come. Because whenever we cling to Christ in those vulnerable moments, because we're weak, we're flesh, we can't fight the spiritual realm in our own strength. Whenever we are under spiritual attack, demonic harassment, whatever, that puts us in a very vulnerable place to truly throw ourselves on christ and we're very, you know, we're reliant upon him in those moments, unlike, you know, other times in our life when we're not experiencing that. And then so, whenever we're in that place of relying on him at such a vulnerable place, it teaches deep, teaches us very deep spiritual realities that we probably wouldn't learn otherwise.
Speaker 2:You know, you have some giants of the faith, like John Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrim's Progress, and if you read his spiritual autobiography Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners. He struggled. It brought me so much comfort when I read that because I mean, he struggled a lot with that obsessive thinking and thought that he had lost his salvation and the harassments of Satan and just the mental battle that went on for years. And God was training him during that time in holiness and was preparing him for ministry. And his ministry is still affecting the church centuries later and I think god used and molded him through his, his dark nights of the soul from the harassments of satan. Nobody wants to go through that. It's not fun, for there's no question it's. It can be awful, um, but it teaches us to endure in a way that I don't know that many other things can, because that that's a battle that can only be fought by throwing ourselves on Christ.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I was joking around. At the end of the year I kept seeing all these memes that were like Lord, as we're going into this next year, could you send me some of the easy stuff?
Speaker 1:No more of your hard battles, that kind of stuff going around and it was like all this content was being thrown at me that said you're not going to learn grace or you're not going to learn forgiveness unless you go through all these hard things. And it can be, it can suck, it could really suck to get thrown this stuff because we, you know, we're, we're human and it's not an easy thing, but we are forged in the fire. We are forged when we have to go through these hard times and these hard things, but God is there to walk through it with us and to pull us out of the other side. And that's what I love about your testimony so much is that you went through so many years of such just pain and things that sucked I'll just use that word again no, just not great pain, no other word for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and now where you are in, the place that you're in and the position that you're in, with what you're doing with your life you know, working with Renew Clinic, which we're going to talk about later on it's just an incredible thing and an example that no one is too far gone, no one. There's no one that cannot be saved by the blood of Jesus. You know he's there for us through our struggles and through our heartbreak and hardships and hard times and all of that hard times and all of that for us. So, that said, is there anything else you wanted to either share about your testimony or kind of share, as we're wrapping up this episode?
Speaker 2:I think the last piece I want to include is the beginning of my walk with Christ was in that jail and he began to give me a hunger for his word. I remember I felt more free incarcerated in that jail than I'd ever felt outside of jail. And it's not because I was in jail, it's because I knew Jesus Like I, finally, like my face has been turned to him. But it wasn't until after I got out, where, if there was like a born again experience that people had I know not everybody has like it's not like a big firecracker experience for everybody, but for me it was I was by myself in my room and I was praying. I had gotten out of jail, I was in my room and all of a sudden I saw him, not with my, and his love and his forgiveness was poured into my heart in a way that I will never forget and it was overwhelming. I was weeping, but with joy. I had never had that before ever and it was just like pouring into me and I didn't know how else to express that. And so I found like an old sheet and I cut it in like just like a rectangular shape, and then my mom, actually when I was 17,. My mom, I grew up an only child, but my mom had my brother when I was 17 years old and so at the time I was like 18 when this happened and I found some of his Crayola paints spirit, which was the erected cross hands coming up from the flames and the blood, like touching the hands, like atoning, like people, like reaching up to him anyway, but that I painted, filled with the spirit of God in a way I'd never been filled before, and I still have that to this day, that piece of cloth that I mean I'm not an artist at all, but I will I still have.
Speaker 2:And there was a period of time I doubted my salvation and that piece of cloth was a great comfort to me. And so and he's been teaching me and walking with me ever since. He has never left me, he's never forsaken me. I thought that I have pushed myself over the ledge of salvation and lost it before and went through a very dark time and I have sinned horrifically as a Christian, but he has never left me, he's never forsaken me. And I'm not saying it's okay to do those things, but I am just attesting to His faithfulness. To finish what he said he was going to what he has started and that nothing can pluck us out of His hand and we still should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I'm not dismissing that at all. I'm seriously just attesting to his faithfulness. He has been so faithful in my life.
Speaker 1:Amazing. That's beautiful, Sarah. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your testimony and talking about all these things with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, if you are looking to find Sarah outside of the podcast, sarah can be found. Actually, you have a podcast. Yeah, yes, the Waging War podcast. I will link in the show notes a link to your YouTube channel and all that good stuff. And Sarah can also be found at RenewKnoxvillecom R-E-N-E W. Any other resources that you want me to throw out there channels.
Speaker 2:We're a new clinic Knoxville. That's where you can kind of see the podcast, the video. But you can download the Waging War podcast on any podcast platform Awesome.
Speaker 1:I love it Well. Thank you, sarah, for being here. Thank you everyone for tuning in, being on this journey, thanks for having me. Yeah, this has been awesome and more to chat about too. So everybody stay tuned. If you would like to follow along outside the podcast, be sure to join the mission on Instagram, facebook, youtube, at the Radiant Mission. And today we are going to close with one of Sarah's favorite verses, which is 1 John 5, verses 20 through 21. We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know Him, who is true, and we are in Him, who is true, by being in His Son, jesus Christ. So he is the true God and eternal life. Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. We are wishing you a radiant week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everyone.
