The Radiant Mission
The Radiant Mission
127. Faith-Based Addiction Recovery: Breaking Free & Renewing Hope
After years of wandering through the maze of addiction and secular mental health approaches, Sarah Keel found her beacon of hope in faith. Join us as she shares her compelling journey from rebellion to redemption, revealing the profound impact of a biblical worldview on addiction recovery. We explore the tension between secular and spiritual paradigms, highlighting the unique challenges faced by faith-based organizations like Renew Clinic in a world often dominated by New Age practices.
We challenge the conventional narrative that reduces addiction and postpartum depression to mere brain diseases. Instead, we venture into the realm of holistic healing, where spiritual and emotional dimensions are as crucial as the physical. Our conversation redefines addiction as a form of misguided worship, emphasizing the importance of addressing the entire person. Through personal stories and biblical insights, we delve into the transformative potential that lies in acknowledging the spiritual nature of addiction, advocating for a path of true liberation and flourishing beyond mere survival.
The journey of recovery isn't just an individual's battle; it's a family affair. We navigate the intricate dynamics of support systems, underscoring the delicate balance between helping and enabling from a Christian perspective. Discover the power of community and the significance of setting healthy boundaries. Whether it's through groups like Al-Anon or finding solace in prayer, we offer guidance on navigating these challenging waters. As we reflect on the stages of change and the profound impact of surrender, we illuminate the path to healing with hope, faith, and a renewed sense of purpose.
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The Hello and welcome to the Radiant Mission podcast. My name is Rebecca Toomey and we are on a mission to encourage and inspire you as you're navigating through your life and with your relationship with Christ. We have been in a series on being countercultural in a secular world and today I am welcoming back a very special guest. Her name is Sarah Keel. She is a wife, a mom, a lover of Jesus, and she is the executive director at Renew Clinic. She joined us last week to share her testimony. We also talked extensively about abortion and spiritual warfare, so definitely listen back on last week's episode to hear more about Sarah's testimony and those topics that kind of set the stage for today's episode.
Speaker 2:So, Sarah, thank you for coming back, or really for staying up later to talk to me. Oh, it's a joy, though it truly is. It's a joy and the Lord is able to to sharpen our minds at any part of the night, or yeah, that's right, he is 11.
Speaker 1:He is. He gives us all the words, even at night, even at night, so it's a blessing, absolutely Well, I've loved hearing just all the things about your journey, and we've been having such a great time talking about things that often aren't talked about enough, like spiritual warfare and all that good stuff. But today I wanted to talk a bit about Renew Clinic, about what it is, what it does, the people you've met, renew Clinic, about what it is, what it does, the people you've met, how those people have changed transformation stories, all of the things. Because I know that addiction is everywhere around us. It is something that either we ourselves struggle with or someone close to us struggles with, struggle with, or someone close to us struggles with. It's not this far and few between thing that just happens.
Speaker 1:Recovery from addiction a lot of us are addicted to our phones right now, or addicted to food or shopping. Drugs, alcohol, pornography, you name it. Drugs, alcohol, pornography, you name it. There are poles to these things and to darkness as well. It's not an easy road, and so I would love for you to share more as we get started. Just about Renew Clinic what drew you to Renew Clinic, what's your story with Renew and tell us a little bit about how you help others. What it looks like, what that looks like at Renew.
Speaker 2:Sure. So in the last podcast I gave my story about just absolute rebellion from 12 years old till about 18, of a lot of incarceration. 18 of a lot of incarceration using drugs, promiscuity, having an abortion, a lot of just tragic things that I went through as a kid. And then the Lord reached me when I was in jail and continued to reach me even when I got out and you know, he gave me a purpose. There was a reason that he pulled me out of the mud and put me on a rock and told me he loved me and forgave me of my sins and died for me and it's really to proclaim his name until the day I die.
Speaker 2:I truly believe that and the mission field that he's put me in continually and I guess I've just been drawn to the mental health field, the addiction recovery field and up until five years ago, becoming the director of Renew Clinic, I worked in the secular world. You know I worked for DCS. I've worked for various behavioral health care companies and I always, always, always struggled as a Christian, having this powerful encounter with Christ and knowing that he is the answer. And I don't mean to sound too reductionistic or just give it like an oversimplified, you know Bible Christian answer when I say this. But he is truly the answer for the needs of our soul, our lives, our bodies. I mean he is everything. And whenever I realize that it's hard, you can't unsee, that you know, you can't unsee recognizing Jesus as Lord, you know that's just that becomes your full reality. And so whenever I was working in the secular industries and there's a lot of um, you know meta narratives and belief systems and ideologies, philosophies, worldviews that are not biblical worldviews and I did have a biblical worldview or that are antithetical to the gospel, I really struggled and you know working.
Speaker 2:I would say that the mental health industry, the addiction recovery industry, is in large, very progressive New Age. The New Age has very much influenced psychology, clinical work, even the medical industry. Eastern mysticism has also very much influenced, especially like the mental health world. I remember going to conferences and we would have seminars on mindfulness and chakras and biofeedback, which biofeedback isn't necessarily a bad thing, you know, in practice, but it can get very new, agey and just you know these are spiritual practices. They want to treat it as a secular practice, but they are spiritual in nature and people are opening themselves up to spiritual practices when they do these things, things like yoga. You know, this is all just like part of the mental health world, and so, as a Christian and this is all just like part of the mental health world, and so, as a Christian, being surrounded by this and people who have spent many, many years of their education going to colleges that teach this you know most people even working there there's a few people with a biblical worldview, but I would say most people did not I felt very frustrated.
Speaker 2:But I know that God had called me to this state, the Regional Faith-Based Community Coordinator, and basically what that position was. It was a position created by the state to work with the faith community. A lot of people think that means Christianity, but it's actually all faiths because it's through the state. It's a government initiative to bring education into the, I would say, the faith community, but primarily the church, bring education from the secular world to teach about mental health, addiction. It almost and I need to be careful what I say because I have good friends that still do this, but to me it was.
Speaker 2:You know, I believe the church should be leading the conversation on addiction and human suffering and helping people, and I don't think that the secular world is all bad. I do think that there's a lot of wisdom and knowledge that people can get in the secular arenas without being a Christian, because you know, the Bible says that creation declares the truth and so that's why no one's going to be without excuse. So there's a lot of truth that people can gather, a lot of ways that we can observe human behavior and come to certain conclusions to help people. So I'm not saying the secular world is all bad or don't know anything, but it's not informed by Christ and so the solutions often fall short of true biblical freedom and spiritual liberation. But when I worked in that position, mayor Jacobs Glenn Jacobs at the time he actually introduced me to a group of pastors who were pastors of these churches in Knoxville several different churches, larger churches, crossing denominational lines and the lead pastors came together, had a conversation with Mayor Jacobs national lines and the lead pastors came together, had a conversation with Mayor Jacobs and because he basically said government cannot fix this issue talking about addiction, and he said and I want you all to do something.
Speaker 2:And so these churches came together, they started talking with me because at the time I was working for the state, for the faith-based initiatives and we collectively kind of came up with this dream of Renew Clinic and all of these churches put their resources together and they ended up hiring me to be the director. And so when they hired me, there was no website, no building. I was the one staff member I needed to get. I was like I need to get business cards, that's what I needed. We need a website. You know? I mean, it was like bare minimum and God has just really made this ministry flourish in a very short period of time.
Speaker 1:What year was that?
Speaker 2:So I was hired in 2020. We opened the doors in 2020, May of 2021. So we have been. We've had our doors open for three and a half years. I've been on staff almost five. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And I love that this is about a Christ-centered avenue and way to combat addiction Because, as we talked about last week, there is such a dark side to addiction, a spiritual warfare side to this, that we're in a battle. Many of the folks that are coming through your doors and that are looking for help, they're gone through the darkest of dark Right and I don't know how that's combated without the Lord. It's interesting you mentioned the secular health space. You and I had talked and I've talked about this episode on the podcast before, about an episode on the Confessionals podcast where a psychologist, psychiatrist, whatever his role was was working with schizophrenic patients and unknowingly discovered that, whoa, there's a spiritual component to this and it was not something that. And actually there's been a couple of different podcasts I've listened to with mental health professionals that have said the same thing where the mental health world is not talking about the spiritual, they're not talking about the influence that our spirit has over our minds and our bodies, and through this experience, they're trying to come at it from this prescription worldview that, oh, something is imbalanced. We're not going to test what it's, for we have no idea what is imbalanced in your brain. Well, we have some guesses we're going to put some speculation out there. Try this pill. Oh, by the way, it might actually create suicidal thoughts or more depression, but just try it out, see if it helps.
Speaker 1:And I think that it does such a disservice to people. You know all these women. You know I'm all about birth stuff. I love talking about birth. All these women go to the doctor after they've had a baby and perhaps they're experiencing some postpartum depression and they're like here, take a pill, take a pill, you'll be all better.
Speaker 1:And we're not addressing the whole human. Did she just go through a traumatic birth experience? Was she not heard during her birth? Was she physically assaulted or sexually assaulted during her birth? Because chances are she probably was. It's such a common thing. But we don't see it that way because we're so dissociated and separated from the whole process and the things that happen to us in those spaces are normalized and we are groomed for years from the teenage years when they have us go into these OBs and they're checking our cervix we're groomed into thinking that it's normal and okay for someone to stick their hand up there. And then it comes to birth and we're traumatized by that but don't realize that it's just because that's not supposed to happen, because I like to say guess what? The baby's going to come out. Whether someone sticks their hand out or not, the baby comes out. Let you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there's a lot of layers to this. Right, there is and I think that you're really hitting on something that a problem that we've seen is that you know these mental health and addiction issues in the secular recovery world. I would say the meta-narrative is addiction is a brain disease. It's not a moral or sin issue. That's what they literally say. We'll literally say it's a brain disease, it's not a moral or sin issue.
Speaker 2:And I mean philosophically, that is way too reductionistic because, like you said, it doesn't treat the whole person.
Speaker 2:We're not just a brain and actually there's been a debate in neuroscience for the past 20 years on, you know, asking the question what does it mean to be a human?
Speaker 2:Are we just a brain or do we have a soul? And the atheist with a Darwinian worldview, who believes we're just a high form of animal and this is all an accident, would say that we are a brain that came together accidentally over billions of years and the philosophical implications of that really is that there's really no meaning or purpose to anything if they're going to be intellectually consistent, philosophically consistent, but that humans are basically a high form of the animal with neurobiological impulses. Therefore they're not morally on the hook for anything and the best thing we can do is try to get them to a level of functioning Forget flourishing just a level of functioning Because they've basically been condescended down to a brain with a disease. They don't have a choice, which keeps them in bondage, which removes choice, which also removes freedom. And I think it's actually a dehumanizing conversation that addictions of brain disease and on a moral or sin issue that is actually propagated and propped up.
Speaker 1:To quote reduce stigma with a dick.
Speaker 2:Welcome to zoom, yeah To. Yeah. We're having a party at 1111. But it's an attempt to reduce stigma. But I find it to be, we find it at Renew Clinic to be very stigmatizing because it places a label on people and it also reduces what it means to be human down to a brain, without choice. You know it.
Speaker 2:We have a soul and if addiction is truly it's always been said, even in aannna, which isn't christ-centered, but it's always said it's always been said that it is a spiritual disease and if it's a spiritual disease you can't. And the same people who who are in aa saying it's a spiritual disease are the same people propagating that it's a brain disease. So you can't have both. There's inconsistencies there. But to say that it's a spiritual disease, what does it mean to have spiritual liberation? And there's a lot of different ideas about what true spiritual liberation is. And to the Christian, spiritual liberation is only through Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:And so you know, these are actually some of the conversations that we feel called to engage in with the secular community. We find that the secular world is a mission field, even the already recovered world. There's a recovery community out there that isn't necessarily Christ-centered. That's also a mission field to reach with the gospel Like you don't. It's not a higher power, you don't have to just settle there. You can actually know him. You can know the living God, and it's such good news to know him because he actually put on flesh and walk this earth. He's not some carved out image in your mind that agrees with you all the time Like it's better than that, and so I think that that's part of our mission field as well is to kind of push back against some of these meta narratives that are just so easily acceptable accepted, against some of these meta narratives that are just so easily acceptable.
Speaker 1:Accepted, yeah, because I I mean the thing that we hear a lot in just regular conversation is well, someone just has a disease. They're just an addict, they're. They're just, they have this disease. We don't know how to explain it, we don't know why they're, they're just one of the unlucky ones that has a disease. Oh also, the grandma had it, the uncle had it. Yeah, it's genetic, it's a genetic disease. But what about the whole person's life, the whole story, the grandma's life, the uncle's life? You know, there's so much more to addiction than I feel that mainstream makes it out to be. Yeah, then the physical side, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:So there are like some physical realities that could be interesting. You know, like epigenetics is pretty interesting when you look into it and um and and addiction does affect the brain. You can see it on a brain scan. But that's still even. But still, to interpret addiction as just what you see on a brain scan is still way too.
Speaker 2:That's a philosophical statement to say it's not a scientific one, it's a philosophical one and it's reducing people down to, it's too reductionistic, because there's so much. There's an unseen realm, there's a physical body, there's a mind, um, I mean, there are, there's so many moving parts to addiction and we believe at Renew Clinic that addiction foundationally is misguided worship. So when people are running to a substance constantly, it's a form of escapism which you pointed on, which you pointed to earlier. There's a lot of different forms of escapism, but addiction is running and attaching ourselves to something, bonding ourselves to something other than God, for comfort, for pleasure, for satisfaction, and it's also psychologically an avoidance disorder. It's avoiding pain, it's a bonding disorder and an avoidance disorder psychologically. But spiritually it's misguided worship and the way to spiritual liberation is to point people to true worship of Christ and obeying Him and living for him, and that's a very simple way to put it. There's a lot there to it. There's a lot of.
Speaker 1:It's an awesome way to put it. I feel like you really said a lot in a very condensed way. That explains a lot of this. I mean, especially what pops in my mind was pornography addiction, and it's an escape. It's a way that people are escaping their reality or even substance abuse like smoking marijuana. They're just escaping rather than facing emotion, talking about what they're feeling, talking about, they just escape. I mean, you could even put smoking cigarettes in that category, right, Because it's an addictive substance. That's just a couple minutes of someone checking out and escaping their life. So that is a very it was a great explanation.
Speaker 2:Well, it could also point to like a longing, a longing to connect, you know, a longing to feel okay in this world, a longing to have some. I mean, it can also point to some longings that aren't necessarily bad longings. We're just going to the wrong thing to get it, you know and you know. And so, yeah, I just think addiction is way more complex. People are way more complex, because we're not just a high form of animal, we're a low form of angel, and tell me more about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Dr Cofield, he's a clinical psychologist. He's been on our board for a while, but he's also a pastor Brilliant man, but he often uses that term. That a lot of times you know the secular world, the way you view what it means to be human, is actually going to determine treatment and how you value the person sitting in front of you. So a lot of times you know with from a darwinian worldview which is what a lot of the you know, the the more secular industry derives from, um is that we're just a high form of animal that has evolved. I mean, we've evolved from apes, you know, and but biblically we're actually a low form of angel, and so that's why the Christian worldview gives so much more dignity to what it means to be human.
Speaker 2:I mean we believe in the Imago Dei, that people are created in the image of God you know, and, yeah, that also includes that we have choices and we're moral agents and we sin, which is something that a secularist or an atheist would say doesn't matter or is not really at play here and would get people off the hook for being moral agents.
Speaker 2:But the way that the secular world values humans is far more dehumanizing than how a Christian um, than than the Christian value of the human being um, which is we're actually in the made in the image of God. So um, treatment looks very different whenever you hold people capable instead of incapable. You know, we we want to take people not just from dysfunction to function, but from functioning to flourishing, which is that true spiritual liberation which is in Christ. When we, when we receive the forgiveness of sin, which is what everybody needs, we all have a conscience, and I think a lot of people use drugs too because of guilt. Things they've done they want to forget things that have been done to them is so much more satisfying and complete when it comes to all of the needs of the human psyche and the soul. The christian worldview provides those needs, whereas the secular worldview does not. So that's.
Speaker 1:It's very interesting. I've never heard that correlation of humans being lower than angels. I did a little searching on the side here as you were chatting, because I'm like where's the scripture on this? And it does say in Psalm 8, what is man that you are mindful of him and the son of man, that you visit him? For you have made him a little lower than the angels and you have crowned him with glory and honor. And then this is repeated again in Hebrews two, seven, and that's very. I'm so blown away and fascinated by this now.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have to look into a whole other podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a whole other podcast now, because I, you know, I've I've heard a lot of people say, when someone dies, you know they're like, oh, they're an angel now, and it's like this thing that people say to make themselves feel better about whoever died, and I'm like, well, actually they didn't become an angel. Angels are different. They're a different spiritual being, and the purpose of an angel is they spend eternity worshiping God. We're, we're created in his image, you know. So it's. That was such an interesting correlation for me, like you know, to that we're lower angels, lower than angels.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I'm just, I think it's cool, I'm nerding out about something new, but I love your mission and these values that you guys are are really pointing to, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about what addictions are people struggling with that they're coming to renew. Yeah, I believe it's a program that you're doing in person, right? They're coming a couple of days a week and it's group sessions where you guys are having these conversations together, but then there's also, are there one-to-one kind of sessions? Tell me a little bit more about that part that part Sure.
Speaker 2:So we also believe before I get to that we also believe that treatment can be too reductionistic. Obviously in the clinical world, also in the faith world, sometimes there is a stigma against biblical counseling because sometimes a biblical counselor can just give an oversimplified Bible answer to very complex trauma issue and that can't be helpful. But also on the clinical world it can just be. Humans can be reduced down to just biological or neurobiological.
Speaker 2:Two ends of the spectrum here, yeah, and so Renew Clinic is very much committed to, as you said before, treating the whole person and which really I think is biblical. I mean, that's the true biblical way to do it. If you're going to do, if you're doing really good clinical work, you're doing it the biblical way. You know, yeah, and I don't think that you know, clinical knowledge is just like extra truth out there outside of the Bible, because all truth belongs to God and he has provided insight. Now the clinical world can take into some pretty wonky new age places, but overall new age places, but overall the medical wisdom, the clinical wisdom that has been given to help mankind, all truth belongs to God, but that can also get those sectors can also get wonky. So I say all that to say we are, we have we, our staff has a biblical worldview. So when I'm hiring people, when we're interviewing people, we want to make sure that our staff has a biblical worldview. But we also have clinical staff with a biblical worldview and so we are biblically foundational and clinically informed because we're not going to give oversimplified Bible answers to very complex traumas. We're also not going to excuse away personal responsibility because of trauma. You know it's both. It's both.
Speaker 2:And for people to really reach freedom they need both the compassion of the sin that's been committed against them and to help them process the sins that have been committed against them, but also how they're thinking and reasoning and rationing through the world, while also holding them accountable for their own actions and behavior and how they're showing up in the world. Both are needed and it really takes the guidance of the Holy Spirit to know what's needed in the moment. You know, but I have a great staff and a great team. But our treatment portion we meet three days a week Monday, wednesday and Friday from 5 to 8 pm. So it's nine hours of intensive group therapy for a minimum of 12 weeks, I would say. And our participants also get an hour of one-on-one counseling, marital counseling, family support we have a family support director, jennifer Rokiski. She works with the families, does an amazing job. We also have a director of biblical counseling, jeff Maitland. I love Jeff.
Speaker 1:I need to have Jeff on this podcast. He and I have had some good chats about spiritual warfare.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally, he's great, he's a wealth of knowledge, absolutely. But some of the issues that people have are theological issues. It's not just trauma, it's, you know, it's the age old question if God's good, why evil? You know, and not every clinical counselor can answer that question. You know, they're trained to deal with the mind and the emotions. So we also have the biblical counselor on staff to be able to answer some of those questions, some of the apologetic, theological questions. So both are needed to work as a team.
Speaker 2:We don't think it's just the clinical personnel that's going to help people or just the biblical personnel that's going to help people. It's going to be both that are all filled with the Holy Spirit to help our people. So that's the more like IOP intensive, outpatient portion. I would say that's the main function of Renew is the treatment. But, like I said, I also think we're called to speak to these metanarratives through podcasts and conferences and things like that, educational workshops, to make a case for Christ in a secular world and to reach people for Christ in the already recovered community. I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. That is amazing. Now there are kind of three buckets that I wanted to touch on. I'm going to leave it to you to tell you know, to kind of make the decision on which way to go. First, because there are those that may be struggling with addiction now. They are trying to walk with Christ but they are struggling with addiction or maybe they recently went through recovery. That's kind of the second. And then the third are those that are like me, that have friends and family that are going through struggles right now and don't know how to help those around us. Yeah, you know, I'd love for you to kind of share maybe a little bit of advice or thoughts or encouragement for those groups and however order feels right to you so let's start with the families.
Speaker 2:The family members are often the forgotten piece of the puzzle, and addiction is not. It never just affects one person, because we're not created to be alone, we're not created to just be neutral beings walking around. Just you know addictions only hurting myself, like no one is neutral. You're either giving life or taking life. Help, you know living for the kingdom or living for the flesh, or you know so. There's no neutral ground. So our actions affect people, our choices affect people and families are affected.
Speaker 2:It does not just stop with the addicted loved one and oftentimes the family members don't know how to help and it feels like an insane vicious cycle that they don't know what's helping, what's hurting. Nothing makes sense to them. They don't know how to make sense of addiction. They don't know how to make sense of addiction. They think a lot of times, especially from the Christian community, because you know we're taught to have Christian charity but that can also turn into like enabling. So family members don't realize that they're actually hurting the situation by giving their loved one money and continuing to bail them out of jail and giving them a place to sleep at night when they're still using and I understand, I cannot imagine, especially for the parent who has a child, and you're going against every natural inclination that you have to care for the needs of your child, who could be addicted to drugs, and to tell them, no, you can't come in the house and it's cold outside. Or to say, no, I'm not giving you money, and the child's saying I'm starving, I'm hungry, you know? I mean, I can only imagine what that's like to have to draw those types of lines and oftentimes, if and I'm just using this as an example with a parent-child relationship oftentimes if a parent has a child who is very deep into their addiction and they've given them money, they've bailed them out, it is not helping, it's continuing a vicious cycle. They have to get to a point where they refuse to give them money, they refuse to help them in any way.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying refuse love or encouragement or presence, I'm just saying refusing to help them feel comfortable in their addiction anymore for not one more second. That is a very difficult thing for families to have to walk through and it's something that, unless you've had to do it, unless you've had to walk through that, it's really hard to understand. But that is not the natural response for people and so I think it's paramount that if a family has a family member, has a loved one who is struggling with addiction, to find a support system to find people who are walking through it and to find wisdom from people who have walked through it and have some wisdom and can help them, and to trust the wisdom of others, you know. But it makes the whole family sick and so you know there's also work that the family will likely have to do their own internal work to be healthy and to know how to love their addicted loved one in a healthy way and to be ready right for that hope, that recovery that you know, that we're hoping for.
Speaker 1:But that's great advice. That really is great advice, because it's like if you're trying to do anything in life, you're going to research and you're going to try to meet like-minded people that are working towards that cause. I hate to always use birth for everything, but I'm gonna if you're going to have a home birth.
Speaker 1:You're going to join home birth communities to learn from other home birthers on how to do it Right. Right, if you are experiencing a loved one that's going through addiction, finds community with others that have walked that path before that, can you know, help, help, guide you through that? That's great advice. Yeah, cause I think so many of us feel like we're just walking along in isolation, mm-hmm. You know, and I know that AA has a thing you know right.
Speaker 1:They have like a thing for the families or whatever. Al-anon. Yeah, so I can guarantee there are Christian communities of people that are doing similar things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right, and we are at Renew, I mean we. So we, we welcome family members, even if their loved one is not going through treatment, I mean, and it's a free service, it's just a community that that I would say that we're building as well, of family members, that you know, they're just man and it's helpful just to hear and be in life with other people who are going through it with you too, you know, because, like you said, it can feel so isolating.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I know my sister is not here today she is my co-host and is here a lot of the times but she actually has shared on the show before and this is something she would be comfortable sharing if she was here. She experienced eating disorders. She struggled with bulimia and anorexia for many years and she feels in many ways that it's a form of addiction in its own way, because she became addicted to her response to stress and whatever the case might be was her eating disorder and she actually had changed her major because she wanted to go down the path of becoming a mental health therapist at some point, specifically for the families.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because of how hard it was for her to go through and none of us know what to do. You know she's going through it and we're like what, what do we do to help you? Right, and all of us were saying these things. You know we wanted to help but we couldn't. We didn't have any tools to be equipped with that. Now, she didn't end up going down that path of pursuing that degree, but now she gets to talk about it on the podcast and share with others, which is good, it's a positive thing.
Speaker 1:But it's just an example of another area where families need support, too. It's the person is going through it, but it's not an example of another area where families need support, too. It's the person. The person is going through it, but it's not an isolation. There are others that are impacted by what is going on with that person and for me, being so, she and I are very close and being so close and watching her, I thought she was going to die, like I.
Speaker 1:I literally was watching her kill herself, and that actually is what it came down to was I didn't know what to do. I was at my wits end. She was in college at the time when I finally said I can't, I can't talk to you anymore. Like we we talked every day, you know, texted all day. I said I can until you get help. Like I can't watch you die. Right, and that was the thing. She was, like I'm not going to lose my sister and not talk to her. And she finally started going to a program for her eating disorder and that was, you know, a time where we were able to move through that together, but I didn't have the tools to help her. I just knew that she needed help, and it would have been really cool if I had support back then too, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We're talking 20 years ago. So yeah Again, probably didn't have the internet barely.
Speaker 2:I know, I mean, if you think about it like our, our smartphones, I mean, I mean, if you think about it like our, our smartphones, I mean I had the, I had the Nokia, that you could change the, the, the plates out like the face plates out.
Speaker 1:You, know the little Nokia phone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Mine was blue Baby blue, yeah, all kinds of different face plates for that thing, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, but it's, you know now it's for. A lot of people can find these types of communities on Facebook, facebook groups. Facebook is funny, it's like the new forums. You remember forums back in the day. I find that with Facebook a lot, that there are mom groups, there's homeschool mom groups, there's women that are recovering from the copper IUD group I'm in that one.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, copper toxicity is a real thing and it can make give, it can literally give women anxiety, and then women go to the doctor and they prescribe them drugs for anxiety and really it's the copper that's leaching out into their bodies. There's also support groups for the plastic one, mirena, because that one can cause suicidal ideation. There's all kinds of support groups out there. So all these things are just happening to our human bodies as we're being, you know, told.
Speaker 1:These things that are distortion and it's kind of a common thread that we've talked about on this podcast is God's design for our bodies and our health, to look at the body holistically and what each organ does to work together to give us life and health. And of course it's not something that we're promised. But we don't help ourselves when we get involved in pharmaceuticals that impact our liver, impact our thyroid, that impact our liver, impact our thyroid, impact our hormones or our endocrine system. We end up creating problems through that, that it takes sometimes a veil being dropped to even see it, cause I didn't for a long time. I mean, I took every birth control that existed as a believer, didn't think that there was anything wrong with it until I paid for it physically and mentally, and started to see that it was just a trick.
Speaker 1:You know it's just this lie that I'm sold, and guess what? Learning about our fertility is actually a lot easier. I mean, I was 30, whatever years old when I first got the book Taking Charge of your Fertility. I was like, wow, god is very smart. He designed our bodies extremely well. We are on a cycle that is predictable. All we have to do is pay attention. But I digress. Okay, so family's advice is get a support system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Get a support system and don't hide. You know what's going on in your, in your home. Reach out to a trusted friend, and sometimes that's just the first step for somebody. Is you know, the first step for the addict is to confess right, to admit that I'm powerless over my addiction. My life's become unmanageable. Only a power greater than myself can restore me to sanity. Is, you know, part of the 12 steps.
Speaker 2:Obviously that's Christ, but the family member has to do that too. You know, our lives have become unmanageable. This isn't working. This is an addiction, you know, and sometimes that's hard for the family member to actually confess as well. I think everybody has to get to that point and for some it's harder than others. But to, yeah, find that trusted person, talk to them, get a support system, get a support group, um of of people who are going through it, people that have gone through it, where they have that wisdom. Pray, pray, pray, pray. My mom prayed for me and um, and I believe God heard her prayers. So you know it is ultimately the Lord that will. It takes a divine intervention for anybody to take their hands off of that drug and to want something better, to want something new. So just pray, pray, pray. So that would be my advice, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, pray, pray, so that that would be my advice. Okay, Okay, and now? What about those that maybe are going through a struggle with addiction now haven't fully recognized it, or those who are kind of in the recovery process? Advice thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean so many different people are in different places. You know, you talk about, like the stages of change. Some people are in contemplation mode, some are in pre-contemplation, some are in action phase. So people are going to be in different stages of like their readiness to change um there's, there's.
Speaker 1:Is there three stages? How many stages are there?
Speaker 2:Oh no, I think there's like four. Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm blanking. Hold on. There's pre-contemplation contemplation action. I think there's four or five. Hang on, let me pull this up.
Speaker 2:But regardless, a lot of people stay in the pre-contemplation phase for a long time, which basically hold on. Let me pull up stages of change. So there is here it is pre-contemplation contemplation, preparation, maintenance and action. So a lot of people hang out in the pre-contemplation stage for a while and it says the individual is not yet aware or does not acknowledge the need for change. So if somebody is there, I would say my advice to that person is if you have more than one person in your life telling you, hey, I think there's a problem, or if you cannot enjoy life or enjoy anything without a substance, or if your life is centered around how you're going to get that substance, when you're going to use that substance, if that is the main thing that you think about most of the time, be willing to consider that there is a problem and whether or not we acknowledge it or not, that is not what determines if there's a problem or not, because a lot of times it's just our own denial or personal resistance to actually seeing the truth. But there's a lot of red flags that even a person in the pre-contemplation stage can recognize to be able to say, okay, maybe there is a problem here. So the contemplation stage I would say most of the people coming through our doors are going to be in contemplation or preparation. So they're aware. So in contemplation, they're aware of the need to change. They're uncertain or undecided about taking action. A lot of times people come through and they start treatment because their probation officer is making them, or their job is making them, or their wife's about to leave them, and they become convinced as they are in treatment. Oh wow, this really is a problem. And then some people come and they are ready to change. Even they're walking through the doors ready to change.
Speaker 2:We just had a girl this week, her intake. I mean, she's just so sick of her choices, she's so sick of doing the same old thing and that's such a beautiful place to be. She's so broken. She feels like you know, just so low in life right now. But what a beautiful place to be too. I want to encourage those people who are just like I'm sick of my sin. You know why do I keep doing this? Yeah, but what a beautiful and that can also be a terrifying place to be because you recognize your inability to change yourself. But it can also be such a beautiful place because that's often the place of surrender, and I want to encourage those people. Yeah, so there are five stages of change. Thank you, that's helpful. Yeah, so there are five stages of change.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that's helpful. I think that that's really helpful to to just there's going to be different places where people are, and I think it's important for all of us to recognize which which, whatever side that is.
Speaker 1:But you know, if this message is speaking to someone listening and perhaps you're struggling with something, reach out to Renu, reach out to Sarah and I'm sure if you're not in the Knoxville area she can help you find somebody in your area that can help you through these things. And you also have a podcast now we mentioned it last time called the Waging War Podcast, and I'll link it in the show notes. But you guys have some great topics on there. I was listening to them earlier today. A couple of episodes Awesome, yeah, they are, but it's cool because it's kind of a little bit of everything. But that's a great place for someone to get some biblical perspective on. You know what they're going through.
Speaker 2:I mean it ranges from how do I forgive to, and you know, struggling with sin and can I lose my salvation to is the Bible reliable?
Speaker 2:Because these are all conversations that people are having, coming through our doors and are also having in the recovery community.
Speaker 2:I just had a conversation the other day with a couple of people who work in the industry, asking about the reliability of the Bible and I'm telling you, you know, I do believe that we're missionaries called and that's our mission field is to this industry. Because you know, you wouldn't normally piece put together like this apologetic conversation of the historical reliability of the Bible to addiction recovery. But actually it's very much entrenched because these conversations are circulating and the recovery community is actually very infatuated with Gnosticism and you know these, the lost gospels, like the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Barnabas and Peter, and which were much later than the gospels, and their heretical texts, and they were never considered scripture. But the addiction recovery community is very much infatuated with things like this and we I happen to just have inside knowledge of that, you know, but on the outside people wouldn't typically piece those two together. So on the podcast we address that. You know, we address some of these conversations. So that's great.
Speaker 1:It seems random, but it's not well, it's, it's all stuff that's coming up which is important and you know, obviously I'm not always the biggest fan of statistics because I know how skewed they are.
Speaker 1:Like, I love when I hear statistics about home birth and I'm like where was I in this study? Because I wasn't. I didn't answer any survey, so you, you know they're all skewed. But according to American addiction centers, 48.5 Americans 48 million Americans age 12 and older battled a substance use disorder in the past year. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people. That is a lot.
Speaker 1:That's only the people that reported to this study right so what is the actual number, because you know that takes someone reporting this right. That is a lot and that's 12 and older 12 and older, 12 and older.
Speaker 2:Almost 20 of americans, it says yeah, yeah, so everybody knows somebody right, yep I mean that's what that number tells me. That's why the family support piece is so important, because everybody knows somebody with that kind of statistic, with that kind of, with that kind of number of people are actually using and have it and have it. Those are people who are in the preparation or contemplation stage. That doesn't even include the pre-contemplation people.
Speaker 1:No, no, cause they're not even ready to admit it, they're not even there yet. Yeah, it's probably 50% of Americans, yeah, yeah, so it's a huge thing. And I know last time we talked a lot about the spiritual side of things and this you know that we talked about it this time too, because there's a lot of there's more factors to addiction than just genetics, let's say right, it's true, there's the spiritual side, the childhood trauma side, there's all of these facets and I love that you guys are addressing all of it. You know that Renew is looking at the holistic person to get through these things. So you're a testament to what recovery looks like on the other side, right? So what is it like on the other side?
Speaker 2:better, I would say well, yeah there's purpose, there's freedom, there's joy, forgiveness meaning like dignity, you know I I mean that's one of our values is restoring dignity. You know. That's why we want renew clint to be so nice. Renew clint's a very nice building. It's feels really good, it's nicely decorated. You Renew Clink to be so nice. Renew Clink's a very nice building, it feels really good, it's nicely decorated. We want people to feel like we're honoring them. You're walking through these doors and we want them to feel honored and valued.
Speaker 2:But going back to the spiritual warfare piece, you know how many people use drugs just to silence the noise, use drugs just to silence the noise, you know, just to silence the harassment. Often I'm thinking of one situation in particular. This was not recent, but a while ago. I mean just haunted by the things they've done, haunted and I think, harassed, right, spiritually harassed by the things that they've done and using to silence that. So is it really a brain disease? I mean, whenever I give you that situation, I mean does that sound like a brain disease to you? No, that's not a brain disease.
Speaker 2:That is somebody who is medicating a spiritual harassment. They need the forgiveness of Christ, they need to realize the forgiveness in Christ so that that harassment can't harass them anymore. You know, beating them over the head of the things that they've done, that condemnation. They're using drugs to silence the condemnation, and that's why Christ will satisfy that, because he will forgive them freely. And so that's why gosh the metanarratives in the secular world. I mean, I have a lot of brilliance there, there's a lot of knowledge and wisdom, but it just falls short of truly satisfying the needs of the human soul and psyche.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. This has been awesome. Are there any final thoughts that you wanted to share before we close today, or tonight or tomorrow? We just keep talking a little longer.
Speaker 2:I know right, I'm going to just fall asleep talking.
Speaker 1:Talk to us in your sleep. I bet you can do it.
Speaker 2:You'll hear the secrets that I keep when I'm talking in my sleep. So I always want to encourage the struggling Christian. I always want to encourage the struggling Christian, because that was me for so long and I still struggle. I mean, I still do, but not like I did, in the same way. I'm not saying I never will again either. I'm not, I don't want to say that, but I just want to. I just want to encourage the one who is. I don't want to say that, but I just want to. I just want to encourage the one who is, who just feels as if man, I just I keep doing the same things.
Speaker 2:I keep struggling with sin, I'm struggling with addiction. I you know, I don't know that I could ever be saved, and I just want to tell that person you cannot save yourself. It is not the absence of sin that gets you into heaven, it is the blood of Christ. And so the only thing you can do whenever you're at the end of yourself and you cannot change yourself, you can't fix yourself, you can't make your thoughts better, you can't stop, throw yourself on Christ, and he is the faithful one. He's the faithful one and he knows.
Speaker 2:It says what's impossible for man is possible with God. It's impossible for you. Truly, you recognize that. That's why you're discouraged, because you recognize you struggling Christian or person who is not yet a Christian or is struggling in their sin. You are just simply recognizing the reality. You can't, you can't, but Christ can Throw yourself on him. When I say throw yourself on him, I just mean trust in him, like you would a parachute and you're jumping out of a plane, free fall and trust him to get you to the ground safely. His blood was spilled for you. He is risen from the grave. He's alive right now to intercede for you, to reveal himself to you to comfort you. Call on his name and I just want to encourage the struggling Christian or the struggling person that thinks that they're just too far gone, and I'd say that's my final word.
Speaker 1:Amen, sister, I love it. Amazing. Sarah, thank you for joining me for all of these hours that you have spent with me. I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 2:It's been fun. Thank you, I really enjoyed it. I really have.
Speaker 1:Thank you Absolutely, and you can find Sarah at RenewKnoxvillecom if you're looking for Renew or again the Waging War podcast or Renew Clinic on YouTube and I'll link everything in the show notes. So please go to those notes and you can click through. It'll be easy. But thank you all for tuning in and being on the journey with us. If you'd like to follow along outside the podcast, you can join the mission on Instagram, facebook and YouTube at the radiant mission. And today we are going to close with Romans, 12, verses nine through 21. It's a little longer one but I love it because Sarah shared it with me and I think it'll be a good encouragement to those listening today.
Speaker 1:Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal but keep your spiritual fervor serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with the Lord's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice. Mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone, if it is possible. As far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written it is mine to avenge. I will repay, says the Lord. On the contrary, we are wishing you a radiant week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everyone.
